Icac lawyer tells Charles Perrottet the key to lying is ‘you have to be really good at remembering it’

Charles Perrottet appearing at Icac in Sydney. He was questioned by Peggy Dwyer on Monday. Photograph: ICAC View image in fullscreen Charles Perrottet appearing at Icac in Sydney. He was questioned by Peggy Dwyer on Monday. Photograph: ICAC Icac lawyer tells Charles Perrottet the key to lying is ‘you have to be really good at remembering it’ Perrottet disagrees when counsel assisting Peggy Dwyer SC claims brother of former NSW premier is not truthful and ‘constructing evidence’ Follow our Australia news live blog for latest updates Get our breaking news email, free app or daily news podcast A brother of former New South Wales premier Dominic Perrottet has told Icac he would lie to a property developer about delivering political outcomes “to keep him on side”, but Charles Perrottet has denied lying to the state’s anti-corruption watchdog. Charles Perrottet, who is among three Liberal figures alleged to have anticipated receiving $2m in prohibited political donations from Jean Nassif, told the Independent Commission Against Corruption (Icac) on Monday that he “made up” updates for the property developer. Perrottet said he provided advice with a “political flavour” when chasing payments for genuine services provided to Nassif’s company, Toplace, by lobbying company Beckington, which was controlled by Christian Ellis and Jeremy Greenwood, also named in Icac’s allegations. Dominic Perrottet is not named as a person of interest nor is he accused of wrongdoing. Charles Perrottet, a member of the NSW Liberals’ conservative right faction, said he advised Nassif in the hope the developer would a sign a statutory declaration about allegations that the rival centre-right faction was circumventing electoral funding laws which prevent property developers from donating. Under questioning from counsel assisting, Peggy Dwyer SC, he rejected the suggestion that his arrangement with Nassif was similar to the one he sought to expose. “So you were doing that by promising Jean Nassif that you could achieve political outcomes for him if he gave money, correct?” Dwyer asked on Monday. Perrottet replied: “They’re very separate issues.” He has insisted payments from Nassif were not political donations. Dwyer read a message about the allegations against the centre-right – for which the commission heard Nassif never provided a statutory declaration – that Charles Perrottet sent to Ellis in February 2020: “It’s the money train. They cannot donate, but they get around that in two ways: cash and monthly government affairs retainers … the going rate is $50,000 per month.” Dwyer suggested that Perrottet had been trying to set up “the same sort of arrangement to help the right”. “You wanted to get on board the money train, didn’t you?” she said. Charles Perrottet denied this. Earlier on Monday, Charles Perrottet was asked about a message he sent to Nassif in January 2021, in which he provided a “short summary” on actions he had taken in relation to three Toplace developments, including the reference “189 spoke to my PDU contact”. The commission heard that “189” referred to a Toplace development in Parramatta and “PDU” referred to the NSW Planning Delivery Unit. Perrottet said he did not have a PDU contact and made no call. “Ultimately, I made it up,” Perrottet told the Icac hearing. He said under questioning he would lie to Nassif by “regularly mislead[ing]” him about his own involvement in lobbying work by Beckington for Toplace. “At times, I would add my own political flavour to it to keep him on side,” he said. He said this included “many messages of me providing political updates to encourage him to make those payments [to Beckington]”. He was asked about at a meeting he attended at a Sydney pub in January 2021 with Toplace executive Sharangan Maheswaran, named in another of Icac’s allegations, at which messages suggested Charles Perrottet had collected a cheque for $148,500 for Beckington. Charles Perrottet accepted he had told Nassif the money was for “assistance for the upcoming preselections”, but told the commission it was in fact for genuine lobbying work by Beckington. View image in fullscreen Property developer Jean Nassif, who fled Australia in 2022, is expected to appear befoer Icac via video link from Lebanon on Friday. Photograph: PR IMAGE After Dwyer said his evidence contradicted a private examination in June in which he said he was there to pick up Nassif’s statutory declaration, Charles Perrottet said: “It could be both.” Dwyer accused him of lying to the commission. “The great truism about telling a lie, Mr Perrottet, is you have to be really good at remembering it,” she said. “And when you gave evidence in June this year that you were picking up a statutory declaration that was a lie, and when you gave evidence this morning that you didn’t know what you were picking up, that was a lie. “And you, when confronted with the truth about it being a cheque, you’re constructing your evidence around that. That’s what’s going on here.” The commission heard evidence about an arrangement under which Beckington would receive 1% of the total Nassif made from any developments they were successful in fast-tracking. “His example of the 1% for any project that could get through, and he gave an example of if you made $100m, you’d get 1%,” Charles Perrottet said. Perrottet repeatedly insisted that he provided “advice”, rather than work, to Nassif. Perrottet told the inquiry he had agreed that his wife, Anita Perrottet, would receive money for advice he provided to Nassif through her business Macquarie Consulting from Beckington, controlled by Ellis and Greenwood, and JPG Advisory, controlled by Greenwood. The watchdog has evidence the payments to Anita Perrottet totalled $660,999 over two-and-half years. She has told the commission this was for “stragetic and marketing advice” she provided. Under questioning from the presiding commissioner, Fabian Gleeson, Charles Perrottet said it was his understanding at the time that this was not income he had to disclose in his tax return. He said he had met with Ellis and Anita to discuss the invoice arrangement, but Dwyer said this directly contradicted Anita Perrottet’s evidence to the commission last week, in which she said she had only spoken with Greenwood about payments. “My recollection is the invoicing conversations that I had, and I believe Anita was present, were with Christian,” Charles Perrottet said. Nassif, who fled Australia in 2022, is expected to appear by video link from Lebanon on Friday. He has previously denied any wrongdoing. Explore more on these topics Independent Commission Against Corruption New South Wales politics Liberal party news Share Reuse this content